Curse

BahamutKaiser · Feb 05, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

That's not the only thing he repeated ActionJack, basicly every idea he listed were from previous posts I wrote, and half of it is already mentioned here.

Developement and Creation of good ideas involves a great deal of discussion, not a bunch of random comments and broken concepts. That is why the thread invovles alot of detail and discussion, whether you like it or not, it is a neccessary part of coordinated effort, if your not willing to do it, make your own thread, the idea here is to collect ideas, not repeat them.

draxynnic · Feb 06, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

Lol!

doesn't that seem Like a odd sugestion?

No I definatly said reversal: post 69

And I thought I wrote reversal, too...

Fixed.

nebojats · Feb 06, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

draxynnic, awesome job summarizing all the ideas. Thanks for doing that, man. This is a great thread and I'll make sure to make a contribution when it looks like it's about to fall off the first page. There really should be a sticky on this. Admin?

nebojats · Feb 06, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Here's an idea I'm thinking of incorporating into my new version of the Mannai: a weapon whose damage is determined by something else, or a "conditional damage weapon. "

Just as an example: a weapon whose damage is a percentage of the target's energy. That way, as the enemy's energy depletes, the weapon does less damage. Just as a staff can do anywhere from 2-4 to 11-22 damage, this weapon could maybe do 5% to 20% of the target's energy.

Creating a weapon like this would reinforce a class's role. If the damage is determined by mana, they will attack spellcasters and monks. If the damage is determined by the target's health, the class would be a great damage dealer initially, but would become less effective as their target loses health. If the damage is determined by adrenaline, they will attack warriors and paragons.

I'm sure there are a whole slew of "conditional damage weapon" ideas that are better than those I've laid out. It seems to me to be a good way to clarify a class's role and emphasize what their function is on the battlefield.

Thoughts?

System_Crush · Feb 07, 2007, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Supporting @nebojats
Damage that spreads to the energy at X% would make for some interesting and magical looking weapons(as they have to strike the spirit of the foe so they are Ghostly/Phasing like)
You would deal less damge tot he foe as long as they have energy, but also decrease their energy with each hit, the less energy the foe hass the more damage you do to their health.
The damage to energy would of cource have to be reduced as 480(+runes) opposed to 20-55 of cource takes to diferent numbers.

Mostly for attacks dependant on effects on yourself dervish attack skills cover all the bases, assasins do the same for effects on foes.

Numbers like current health, current energy, current adrenaline however have not been used in attack skills yet.

It a bit like attack skills that said, but still I think there is a way of using a weapon that does scaling conditional damage without a skill.
(+15% damage while hexed inscriptions are not scaling! Its a effect to fit a certain play style)

nebojats · Feb 07, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

System Crush, your weapon that steals energy as well as health is interesting. What you're really doing is mixing my idea of a "conditional damage weapon" with a new idea: a weapon which has an effect beside damage. That is an idea that could be novel enough to stand by itself, although I can't think of any examples other than energy-stealing. Also, it might not be very satisfying to play a character who does no damage at all.

I agree that attack skills already cover the effects we're discussing, but I also agree with you that weapons such as these would add a new twist to gameplay which is creates a new role within the framework of the game.

I know this thread isn't meant for advertising concept classes, but check out my most recent post (#6) on the Shrift thread. There, I've laid out what seems to be a pretty good "conditional damage weapon."

Red_Dragon56 · Feb 07, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

I guess I'll just post my Rage idea.

Rage-Similar echos they don't need shouts or anything like that to sustain them, rather they require a number of hits of adrenaline to sustain the ability. (EX. Ability : Rage-4; Rage-7; Rage-10 number representing the amount of adrenaline needed to sustain the ability)

Winterclaw · Feb 08, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

I haven't read the whole thread, but here's a missing idea:

Melee Support Class
This idea is pretty simple, it would be like a paragon, monk, or rit, but instead of being a ranged attacker or spell caster, this would be a class that gets into the think of things and dish out some damage, but also be able to help out others.

Alternate "elements" caster
This would be a form of elementalist, but intead of air, earth, fire, and water his main skill lines in terms of damage would be Light, Darkness, and Chaos. This type of elementalist's skills would have a lower listed damage but their attacks would be armor ignoring.

actionjack · Feb 08, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Seeing as how there are more good ideas posted... I feel like joining in too...

Anyhow.. here is one to play with.
A Mid-range Melee Weapon

Which will apply to Pole-arm weapons (could also apply to whips, but it was first thought up for lance/spear/pole-arms). It's a melee weapon, but with an extra reach. Its nothing new, but to add an extra spice into it, can make it differnt in its attack power at differnt distance.

Thus it would have 100% regular attack power at a extend distance (say about 6 feet away), but upon close encounter (when enemy is attacking you at melee range), its attack damage falls to 66% of or so. Its reason that it is harder to use such long weapon at close distance. It is also to offset the advantage of having a longer-reach weapon (which enable you to get a first-attack better, as well as possibly cover a wider area (about 45 degree arc))

This make it more as a melee-support weapon, in which you would help in attack, but would not want to be up and close with a foe.

Of couse, it would not be complete with out associated skills that extend this property. So you could have skills like "Pole Defense" (reduce attack power by 50% but add X armor when in melee distances) or "Drill Pentration" (increase X damage on next attack if at melee distances), and several other skills that would help you keep the enemy at bay (could effectly use it as a kitting weapon too, of hit-move back-hit combo).

Just something to make a pole-arm weapon more differnt. Might try to develope it more if I can get this mount-class idea out....

BahamutKaiser · Feb 09, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

I can understand a Whip doing less damage at close range, but a spear can be held closer to the point, or used in a staff fashion at close range to be plenty effective at close range. Another compliment to the idea of mid range weapon features could be that a spear weapon does piercing damage at reach, but slashing or blunt damage up close, from swinging the staff instead of jabbing with the point. This could include a damage reduction, or perhaps the other way around, at range the spear tip could offer significant armor penetration, as that is what a spear or pike, or lance is for, perhaps a 20 or 30 percent armor penetration would be acceptable.

Against a melee foe it would be impossible to keep them at range wile they attack you, without assistance, which could also be part of the classes abilities, but upon approach or chasing it would offer maximum potential in much the same manner, without trying to develop scaling figures between maximum and minimum damage. This figure could also include a faster attack speed at close range with weaker blunt attacks, wile having higher figures and slower attack speed at a distance.

I think the important thing to assess is that this feature or class with this feature includes options for reach and melee targets so it isn't crippled when it is being pursued.

The idea for a weapon which scales damage based on health, energy or adrenaline figures seems somewhat unstable. I'm somewhat unsure if it could work properly or reasonably. It would make more sense to have spells which offer altering figures based on status, some for when your charged and some for when your depleted. It is actually simular to Desperate Strike.

Thanks much, this is the sort of support I could use to perhaps write a mounted class idea. I still feel a bit of uncertainty about reusing simular weapons, like spears and lances in comparsion to throwing spears and javalins, or swords of some unique nature in comparison to warriors selection, but I think these are the natural and realistic weapons of combat, and trying to stress the obscure for new tools when the most common weapons are being overlooked isn't reasonable IMO. Afterall, the common spear is perhaps the oldest and most functional weapon in advancing combat til the advent of firearms, I feel it deserves the recognition of a melee feature.

System_Crush · Feb 09, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

Which will apply to Pole-arm weapons (could also apply to whips, but it was first thought up for lance/spear/pole-arms). It's a melee weapon, but with an extra reach. Its nothing new, but to add an extra spice into it, can make it differnt in its attack power at differnt distance.

Thus it would have 100% regular attack power at a extend distance (say about 6 feet away), but upon close encounter (when enemy is attacking you at melee range), its attack damage falls to 66% of or so. Its reason that it is harder to use such long weapon at close distance. It is also to offset the advantage of having a longer-reach weapon (which enable you to get a first-attack better, as well as possibly cover a wider area (about 45 degree arc))

Actually I think you should abandon the spiked end damage all together when in melee range, youdeal 100% of damge while the foe is in the arm range, and while the foe is in pole range the pole is used to push the foe back, as bahamut said sort of used in a staff fighting way, but not focusing that much on dealig damage(perhaps a minor bit of blunt) but mostly you just push the foes back(because the pole is long you might be able to push up to 2 foes adjascent to target foe back into arm range too, although adjascent is just a bit to big, you actually need 3 foes in a orderly row to go |left|mid|right| of the pole of your weapon)
Couple this with a very small chance to knock down(perhaps increased by an attribute or a skill) as you are pushing the foes, they might lose their balance.
Once your target is in arm range again you continue with normal attacks, this has the interesting effect that while you can attack your foe, your melee using foe can't, and while you are in your foes attack range you can't attack him.
(any foes in melee range you are not targeting can keep attacking you unless they happen to be too close to the foe that gets pushed back and suffer the same fate)

this would natural be coupled with attack skills affecting pole range and skills affecting arm range.
Sticking the pole of your weapon between the legs of your foe and knocking him down would be a pole range skill.
While a special jab for armor piersing or whatever would be a arm range skill.

As for the 45 degree arch I feel we have scythes for that, any multy target melee swiping weapons will IMO likely look ripped off of scythes, there might be a weapon thies does not go up for but I fail to think of one right now.
Attack skills for multy targeting with a polerarm are of cource fine, the use for a poler arm is just as (if not more) useable for multy target attacks.

Its just a suggestion, I just think a cat and mouse game between apolerarm user and a melee attacker over who gets who into attack range might be a nice twist, that matches some of the originality we have seen with the diferent styles in wich warrior weapons, daggers and scythes where used.

Giddeanx · Feb 09, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I like the idea of polearm weapons. I do also think less damage when the foe is next to you seems realistic as the pointy end of the weapon is usually 5 ft away and manuvering the long pole would be difficult.

I see the polearm being most effective while standing behind a warrior. The warrior body blocking and you piercing over his/her shoulder.

If you are going to allow hitting multiple targets it should be linear such as the dope and the dope behind the dope.

You could also include instant damage when someone comes within range (through a skill of course) so it is kind of like staving off a charge.

BahamutKaiser · Feb 09, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

As far as pole arms go, if they apply reach based attacks, they could also apply push based attacks which allow you to push a foe away from you kind of like knockback instead of knockdown. It could be simular to knockdown except only have a 1 second down time, and push the foe away from you. Also stiffing stances which deal a significant hit of damage on a foe or foes approaching you would be a good feature for spear and lancing.

actionjack · Feb 09, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Thanks for the feed backs. The base idea of it is still to make a melee weapon that has a unique property. Afterall, there are already a list of other melee weapon to choose from.

And yes, there should also be several distance control skills in associated with this, which would enable you to make a nice kiting build that can keep foe away (thus max your damge and protect you from their attack). Push back or knock back is a good term to be apply. There could also be another line of skills that take advange of the close distance with such weapon, enable them to do extra damage or defense when they go up close. Much of it has already been consider befoe.

As this could be in associated with a mount, could also apply some bonus to it, such as a Pole-arm/lance would do extra damage to a mounted foe, and/or take no reduction of attack power when use on a mount (where other melee weapon would be less effective when you are riding on a mount). and so on.

I do like a Pole-arm weapon, think they have a good apeal, as well as good selection of art-style, and could be a good addition to GW. (Pargaon's spead should of be rename to Javelin.. but thats another issue)

While I am still thinking of re-writing a mount class (will try this weekend... but than that is what I been saying the past 6 weekend too....), I think got a nice and unique core concept down (yet to reveal), and add it with pole-arm and mount and banner support, it should come out pretty good. But my major blockage right now on that is how to do mount. That key part is one thing I am very uncertain on. (as there are just many ways to do that)

draxynnic · Feb 11, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Well, this is what I get for sitting on an idea for a few weeks... I get on afterwards and find half my ideas coming from the mouths of other people...

Guess I should get my behind in gear and get this written up.

Updated.

Winterclaw · Feb 14, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

I like the idea of a polearm weapon, but I'm not sure I agree with how AJ would want to implement it. Unless it does a reasonable amount of damage at close range when it's weak, it'd require too much kiting to be 100% effective and it might require a lot of speed buffs as well to stay at a reasonable distance. And if you look at other ranged classes, the only thing they ever have to worry about is the occasional miss from someone moving all of a sudden.

Now it would be doable, but not without some tatical limitations. I mean compare it to warriors (good pressure), sassis (great spike damage), and dervishes (aoe + decent spike) who would be better up close and still would suffer similar drawbacks to kiting casters. Think about it like this, if the spear or whatever attacked once every 1.3 seconds and you pushed someone back, chances are he'll be in adjacent range by the time you can attack again. And if you do the push back like BK suggested, you've got a weapon that would knock down someone on every hit. Just imagine push, move in quickly, puch, move in, etc. If the push has an interrupt effect like knockdown does, you've got a game breaker in the making.

A better way of doing would be to have a normal melee ranged weapon with some attacks (read not all) that can effect a "nearby" target or whatever the appropriate range would be.

System_Crush · Feb 16, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

1 more post and this higly vital thread will fall off the botom of the page, so I guess I'll post 2 tings I would like to place in a CC, but all I have lately are a bunch of not nearly complete ideas.

Just part of idententies and 2 or 3 functions tied to them(many of those function in/from this thread)

But, one thing I thought up which I do not think is here is a low armor tank.
The correct name for this is a damage avoiding tank, which is wierd as a tank is not supposed to avoid taking damage, but soak it all up to protect his party members.
That is why in many other games they fail to be good tanks, in GW however a mob will aggro the most killable player in its aggro bubble(unless its alreaddy bussy with a target) looking first for the player with lowest AL and second with the lowest health.
A class with about 40 base armor but the primary granting damage reduction, by points or by % would be aggro'ed oftenly because of his low AL but would still be relatively safe.

I am not sugesting an evasion tank, because a class that could evade all the time is pretty broken in GW as assasin combo's or conditional attacks often require the attack before that one to hit if not, this couses many problems for the builds that rely on them.
Besides R/A already are able to evade or block for 75%, 75% of the time.

The second thing is:
Also I wanted to opt for them to be able to spamm(not too much naturally) low damage AoE DoT's on 'other ally' that way making Mobs break aggro of off party members and PvPers attack the class before they attack other party members(becouse they risk reciving pressure other wise)
I think a fitting name might be Aggro punishment, but I'll leave that up to you.

Both of these 'Things missing from existing professions' will be a chalange to balance, but I say: balance is a oppertunity not an issue.
(though right now I think the balance between the WoW guru and the GW guru bandwith is an issue more than a oppertunity)

I'm not saying anything on the identety as there must be a million ways to do it and I do not want to limit anyone's perspective.

BahamutKaiser · Feb 17, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

I think it's pretty obvious that you wouldn't be allowed to push a foe away with every attack, it would be done with skills.

If your using a polearm and it has different attack features for close and reach, it would probably be good for attack skills to have different features for close and reach as well. Skills which do not operate on the current situation could provide a defect effect instead.

And I think the term System Crush going for is Damage Interception. Damage avoiding is evasion or blocking, Damage Interception is blocking or recieving damage aimed elsewhere, often to an ally. Probably the best examples of a good damage interceptor by physical means would be a quick weapon wielder like Samurai, a Shield wielder of an original nature or Warrior, and a Rider who can cover allies with his mount.

actionjack · Feb 17, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

I feel like talking a bit more on the Interception skills.

Its not a novel concept, but I do see a very functional and useful one. There are many ways to do it, but I will focus on one formate, which is an "aim-change interception" skills.

Such skills would change the aim, or the targeting of their target foe. Its use would be to help protect their allies, or to interupt the target foe's skill. It will most often only work for short while, as if the target is a human player, they could simply re-target again, but should be enough to throw them off for a spell/skill or two befoe they could re-adjust.

While on a first look, such skill might seem worst than Interception skills, as it does not kill the target's action (if the enemy is casting a fireball, that fireball would still be cast, and hit you). Thus it is best couple with other defensive or counter skills, such as Mantra or other, which could let you better take in the damage, or "soak" in that spell, or repeal it back to them. Therefore would be best to give to a Counter-Tanker type of class. (for me, it would be the Templar or Spell Weaver, but there are also other CC that other have which would use this)

Another use is to redirect a spell that is intended for another target to you. Thus if you see the enemy monk is trying to heal their own team, you use a redirect interception, and let you get the heal instead. In that way, it work better than Interuption.

Of couse, it also require player to keep a tigh look on what action their target foe is doing, and to time their skill right. Thus adding the challenge, and the fun, of such skills.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Feb 19, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Is it good for a Sin to have a Giant/Shuriken as a weapon?
Example:

Shuriken/Kunai
Piercing/Slashing Damage 18-29(req. 9 Deadly Arts)
Not sure

or

Giant Shuriken
Slashing Damage 9-42(req. 9 Deadly Arts)
Two-Handed

What ya think?
Or even make a Ninja CC for this weapons^^!